In an earlier blog posting, I referred to John Dehlin (deh-LINN). He started Mormon Stories Podcast some ten years ago, and it was while viewing an extensive interview (over 7 hours) with the winner of the second season of the TV reality show So You Think You Can Dance that I began my journey of coming to grips with same-gender attraction, and other doubts and questions I have.
As we watched it, listening to John Dehlin's non-judgmental, inciteful questions, I came to understand Benji Schwimmer's excruciating journey as a Latter-day Saint and a gay man. I never got the feeling that Dehlin was trying to persuade me or that he had an agenda. Instead, I sensed that he was asking questions of Benji that came from a knowing place about the challenges of LGBT members of the Church, and that he created a safe place for Benji to be real and open about his challenging path. I found Benji's story both intensely riveting and spiritual. (Please see my blog posting of June 1, 2014)
In listening to interviews with Richard Bushman and Terryl and Fiona Givens, among others, I have sensed John's doubts, he freely admits to having them, but he never seemed to try to influence me as a listener. Rather, I sensed that he was giving voice to the thousands of LDS who are struggling with the Church and its doctrines and practices. I sensed that many like me who listened and have questions or even doubts, were hearing someone like us with similar concerns, and that we were all bound by a Church to which we wanted to keep connected.
For my part, my interactions with Mormon Stories Podcasts have been informative and uplifting. As a result, they have helped me to learn what I feel is an important truth: what is thought of as sure "knowledge" of a belief or doctrine is comfortable and easy, requiring little effort once acquired, but that faith, in the midst of doubt and question, requires great effort and continual nourishment. I have felt spiritual confirmation that faith is indeed the First Principle of the Gospel, and that God will lovingly challenge our seeming sure "knowledge" in order to help us exercise faith in Him. For if I have "perfect knowledge," what need have I for faith? (see Alma 32)
I am greatly saddened by the excommunication of John Dehlin, whom I had the pleasure of meeting when I attended the Affirmation conference last year. The excommunication was not a surprise, and I believe that his Stake President thought he was protecting the Church from apostasy by implementing this draconian measure, which he has the right, and the Church would say, the responsibility to do.
I firmly believe that the primary reason for this drastic action was because of John Dehlin's use of Mormon Stories Podcast as an offering for doubting, questioning Latter-day Saints, like me. I believe that if there had been no Mormon Stories Podcast, there wouldn't have been a Church court. If he had removed all of the "controversial" podcasts, seen by the Church as his attempt to indoctrinate people to believe as he believes, he likely would not have been excommunicated. He was challenged to remove them by his Stake President.
But my opinion is that the Church, i.e., this Stake President, wholeheartedly believed that he was purposefully trying to lead people astray, away from the Church. I do not believe that was his motivation because I never heard it or felt it. It is as if the Church seems to feel the need to control or at least manage perceived controversy, believing that some of its members are incapable of handling cognitive dissonance, and feel the need to protect those "tender sprouts," who supposedly have sure "knowledge." John Dehlin was giving me a voice, a podcast to help me with my own cognitive dissonance, to help me to have faith even though I don't have or know all the answers.
It is almost as if the institutional Church doesn't get me either, and I am relegated to not voice my doubts or questionings, else what has befallen John may befall me. When I did in an earlier blog posting last year, I was called in by my Stake President.
I am very secure in my relationship to the Savior. My testimony of the Gospel is strong. (Please see my posting of June 29, 2014) I am grateful that the institutional Church is allowing more of its controversial past to be examined. But I still have some questions and some doubts. And there are a number of people like me that sit in church pews in every chapel every Sunday who likewise have questions and doubts.
The Church (on a general and local level) certainly doesn't get John Dehlin and what he has been trying to do. I honor him for his attempts to reconcile his faith with his doubts and questions, even if he did make them public. I honor him for his website staylds.com, for helping to launch Mormon Matters, for his talk at the Sunstone Symposium about Why I Stay. I honor him for his earnest desire to stay affiliated with the Church that he loves. I am grateful that he has stated that he will continue to do Mormon Stories Podcast. I need his voice, a voice that his Stake President (the Church?) did not want him to share with the likes of me.
As a side note, I wonder how this posting is going to be received. Will some people feel I need to repent? Will I get called in by my Stake President? Or will someone who has questions and doubts, and knows me and knows my faithfulness in spite of them, read this and feel empowered that maybe they too can continue faithful?
11 comments:
As I read different accounts of what this is about, and then reading the Church's statement, I feel that what was done was the right thing. Based on the reports I read it was about no longer having a testimony and actively encouraging others to lose their testimony add well. We should all have questions. That is where the Faith comes in. But once you lose your testimony you can't stay in and expect no one to challenge you. It becomes a matter of who to turn to for finding answers. I don't go to someone who had left the Church for answers. They can't help me but can only add to the challenge I already have. This may not make any sense unless you have sat in a council where discipline had been imposed. And in one where someone comes back. They are about love. But the person had to accept that and most of them don't. That is what is sad. But I love you, Bob. When you get to slc it would b be fun to sit down and remember. Our when I get to cal.
Bob, I don't really know the story about the podcasts and the excommunication other than what you have posted.
But faith is a gift. I hang on to it and add to it wherever and however I can. I tell my children that there are many things we human beings can never know or fully understand.
But we do know about Heavenly Father and Christ. We know that our family is not perfect, but that phrases like, "I love you," and "I am sorry," are important to keeping us together for the long haul. Because we have a testimony that we are meant to be together. I tell them that we need to love each other and Heavenly Father and Christ. Everything else is kind of secondary...
Often time when significant events in our lives occur it helps me to remember that before we came here we "shouted for joy" when we learned of the plan. I suppose then it was clear to us, perhaps because we sat in His presence, that a loving Heavenly Father would provide opportunities and challenges during this period which would try, challenge and prove us. We knew we could trust Him, we knew we could trust His plan because we saw Him in his glory and could feel his loving care for each of us.
I imagine it was at least comforting if not self-evident, He would not be surprised by the events here on earth, He would not have to hastily make modifications to that plan to adjust to unforeseen choices and actions of His children. Each of His children would make choices, some good some poor, but at each turn He would call after them. He would create the best possible set of circumstances to cause His children to turn toward Him and return home. I have seen it in my own life and know it is true.
God has a son who is John Dehlin and I know that He continues to call after Him. I cannot speak to the details of his excommunication however I can know that he is loved and is of infinite worth as a son of God.
The great test for me in this life is to choose between faithfulness or doubt. By design we come to earth through a veil which obscures our understanding. This limited understanding can cause us to misinterpret events, the actions of others, and even become overwhelmed with the question “why?”.
None of us can dispute the extreme difficulty this life presents. Thorny issues like same sex attraction, abuse, poverty are not easily explained with our understanding, and even when we can put them into context as being part of God’s plan we are still left to watch the suffering and individual struggles of our brothers and sisters with our lack of eternal understanding. Tears flow as we look on and as we struggle through our own challenges, but it all is as it should be. A life perfectly crafted and constructed for each of us, giving us the best chance to return to our Father. Deliverance and hope comes from trusting God and choosing faith over doubt.
I would that ye should remember, that as much as ye shall put your trust in God even so much ye shall be delivered out of your trials, and your troubles, and your afflictions, and ye shall be lifted up at the last day.
Steve,
I'm appreciative that you took the time to read my blog and to leave your thoughtful response. But what do you think about the idea of going to the Lord for answers rather than to the Church run by men who are representing the Lord whom He has called, but are nonetheless fallible?
As a former Bishop and Branch President (twice), I have presided over disciplinary counsels. They are about love, most of the time, and have felt God's love as they came back. I just struggle with the premise that John needed to have a fourth disciplinary counsel (the first three resulted in acquittals) for giving me an opportunity to work through my questions and remain faithful.
It would be nice to sit down and renew our friendship of so long ago!
Tom,
Thanks for taking the time to read my post and to comment. I particularly liked your idea which I share that: "Tears flow as we look on and as we struggle through our own challenges, but it all is as it should be. A life perfectly crafted and constructed for each of us, giving us the best chance to return to our Father."
But I'm not sure that I share your thought that life is to choose between faithfulness and doubt. My question to you, as I wrote about in my blog, is if I can choose to be faithful (I am) and still have questions and doubts. It requires great faith to function in that place. I can choose not to dwell on my doubts and questions, but they still exist. I find that I can put them on the back burner, knowing that a loving Heavenly Father will help me resolve them when I have proven my faithfulness.
I would propose that I can be faithful and true (I'm giving a talk in Sacrament Meeting this Sunday about the Ward Mission Plan that I helped create in my capacity as Ward Mission Leader) and still have those doubts and questions. It exacts a greater faith for me than for the person who has no doubts.
Again, thanks for your comments!
Jennifer,
Thanks for reading my blog posting as you always seem to do. I agree wholeheartedly that "we need to love each other and Heavenly Father and Christ; [that] everything else is kind of secondary."
I like the words of the Primary song:
"I feel my Savior's love in all the world around me.
His spirit warms my soul through everything I see.
He knows I will follow Him, give all my life to Him.
I feel my Savior's love, the love He freely gives me."
"I feel my Savior's love, His gentleness enfolds me,
And when I kneel to pray, my soul is filled with peace.
He knows I will follow Him, give all my life to Him.
I feel my Savior's love, the love He freely gives me."
I feel my Savior's love, and know that He will bless me.
I offer Him my heart, my Shepherd He will be.
He knows I will follow Him, give all my life to Him.
I feel my Savior's love, the love He freely gives me."
I do feel His love, in spite of my questioning. I hope that all those who similarly have doubts and questions can likewise feel His love!
Bob,
It is never easy. Most of the time disciplinary councils are private, as you know. When someone chooses to make it public, that is their right, but it sends me bad signals.
Apostasy is so hard to determine, and it is not something you want to deal with. There are lots of gray areas, unlike other actions that lead to excommunication.
When I read his statements about God and Jesus not existing, about the Book of Mormon being fake, and other things, I wonder why he even believes he is a member anymore. When he tells the ward to leave him alone and not talk to him or his family, he has already made his decision. If someone does not want to affiliate with the Church, they don't have to. We won't force you to be LDS.
Going to the Lord is where we should go. At the same time, sometimes the answers come from men. And sometimes sitting down and really talking and listening, not just pretending, is all that needs to happen for someone to get the answers they want. But some people don't want that to happen.
I don't know John, and I have no desire to read his blog, but I know that this was not an easy decision to make. I am part of a stake presidency, and we have a large group of atheists in our area. They want to be left alone, and we leave them alone. We just ask for the same. If one of them wanted to talk, I would enjoy the conversation, with no intent to convert. Just to share ideas.
Because of what John has said, I wonder his real intentions. He is probably good to talk to for someone who is already out of the Church, but I would not recommend him for someone who has doubts. For those who have decided to leave, his idea for helping them transition is not a bad idea. But don't pretend it is a Church-sponsored situation.
I don't read your blog as often as I should. I enjoy reading it. I hope you get the answers you are seeking. I cherish those memories from so many years ago.
Jd repeatedly said to stand up, to continue the revolution. I remember one of his great podcasts encouraging people to stand up in church meetings and voice doubt in the leaders and teachings, and stand up to the radicals. You are a part of it. You are a true disciple of the revolution. You're a voice to many. A Leader. With great influence to change others and help them expand their questions and doubts. You, Jd, Kate and the other great ones are filling a need for yourselves and others by putting out in a public and permanent record your discontent with your church leaders and their teachings. You are not regulated to speak from your mind and hear. Helping others to question the institution and it's deviations. How great it will be at the judge bar when your leadership in this great time will be discussed. Prodigy or prodigal. Draconians or Jellyfish.
Bob - somehow I can't get the html stuff to work - mostly because I haven't done it before and none of the tutorials I've read have made this little webpage comment box happy! It's always a pleasure to read what you write - there is a tenderness of heart in your words that makes me feel like I'm treading on sacred ground. I hope that my comments will always honor that. You know, I looked up John Dehlin for the first time - and the comments on his home page are concise about his disbelief in the Church. He probably should have been brave enough to just have his records removed. I see nothing in his introduction to himself that says he wasn't already out of the Church in his heart. I'm surprised that you are upset by his excommunication. I'm sure he wasn't - unless his doubts pricked his heart and condemn his own words.
Bob,
Thanks for responding and posing the question. I agree that you can be faithful even in the midst of doubt and questions. And I’m glad to see that by your actions you continue to be faithful.
Perhaps my explanation may sound nuanced however I believe that how we view, speak of, and approach our doubts and questions matters a great deal.
First we will all have questions and there is no way to avoid them given that we are affected by the veil and born with limited understanding. We do not know the mind of God, His will and His individual plan for us, we must as you suggest walk by faith through this life amidst many unanswered questions. Faith is the first principle of the gospel and is the power by which any of us hoping to be saved will be able to lay hold upon salvation.
The question I have wondered about is what role does doubt play in our mortal experience. Faith being a critical component to our salvation how is it affected by doubt? What role does doubt play in coming to an understanding of those thorny and difficult questions which seem to be just part of our earthly journey? Same sex attraction, poverty, sickness, abuse, disability……..
For me clarifying what I mean when using the word “doubt” make a significant difference particularly as it relates to how it affects my ability to exercise faith.
Here is the definition:
1. to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe
2. to distrust
3. to fear; be apprehensive about
If the answers to the questions and the understanding we seek come as a result of our being able to learn line upon line and have the mind of God revealed to us, I assert that these things are only knowable through the exercise of our faith. Now if my doubt is of the variety which is grown out of uncertainty it still leaves room for me to exercise my faith. On the other hand if the doubt is of the distrusting, and or fearful variety it will crowd out my ability to remain faithful. I believe when we read phrases in the scripture like “doubt not” it is because a particular type of doubt will cast out our faith.
Elder Holland, as always, did a superb job recently discussing this topic in his recent talk “Lord, I Believe”. I loved the entire talk but particularly this part.
“I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have. Sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than is an honest declaration of faith. It is not! So let us all remember the clear message of this scriptural account: Be as candid about your questions as you need to be; life is full of them on one subject or another. But if you and your family want to be healed, don’t let those questions stand in the way of faith working its miracle.”
What I love about the story of this farther with the afflicted son is that he asked the Savior to “help thou mine unbelief”, to me he is saying take away my skepticism; wash away the kind of doubt which is limiting my faith. I don’t believe the answers to these difficult questions can ever be found by through distrust, fear, and an unwillingness to believe.
So in my post what I choose to assert is that I trust and know God knows us loves us and has a plan which contemplates all of these difficult issues for which I do not have adequate answers, and believe me as an engineer I want answers ;). He knows I have questions, He gives me what I need to continue moving forward with my limited understanding and encourages me to exercise my faith until I come to a perfect understanding.
Thanks again for your response.
I came across this blog by accident. I appreciate the wonderful and eloquent response by TCDavisjr. I hope this helps you Bob. You seem like such a good man that is being challenged by the adversary. He has such subtle and diverse ways to enter into our hearts and minds, even ways that feel right thru our rationalization. We can become bound by his power thru giving into and supporting numerous little influences like in 2 Nephi 26:22.
J Fallon
Post a Comment